Court Dismisses Coinlab’s MT Gox Claim – Trustnodes

My view for the worst, better, best case scenario

Even with current straight bankruptcy (hasan) trustee can address the court based on finance analysis and cuncil for new evaluations of intangible assets(btc) due to price violity and significant asset value increase after inital btc value evaluation, what if approved, with current straight bankrupty btc+forks must be sold to pay all creditors with updated and new evaluated claims. On another hand, only if CR and plan is approved, these btc and forks can be distributed unexchanged (unliquidated) to the creditors.
All asset whatever tangible or not is liquidated only to the certain point to get liquid asset (funds) to pay all creditors. When that is done, bankruptcy is completed and court/trustee authority stops. Any remaining asset remain as asset what company can use to resume busines or whatever they choose. Ordinary, in bankruptcy liquidation, all asset in full had to be liquidated, because creditors claims are much higher then company assets worth. Its liqidated in full only if asset can't be sold partialy and there is no other assets to be liquidated. However, in MtGox bankruptcy things has changed, untangible asset are now worth much more then total of approved creditors claims and if claims stays with current evaluation, asset will be liquidated only to the funds worth what equal all total approved creditor claims, nothing more! Update: under bankruptcy (hasan) corporation has to be dissolved what after distribution of all creditors has been made and Court bankruptcy termination order , dissolution esentualy cause all remaining asset liquidation and surplus sent to the shareholders - Tibanne and then Mark Karpeles.
Worst case scenario: The Court settle all creditors claim with current evaluated btc (483$) +fiat+interst coverted and paid as JPY where only enough intangible assets (btc) are liquidated (sold) to settle all creditors (what are almost already done), what makes bunkruptcy completed and reamining 165k btc and forks remain as Mtgox intangible asset where they can do whatever they want, liquidate and pay dividends, trade with btc, invest in other projects etc (bankruptcy is over, no obligation or liabilities to MtGox creditors). (Unfortunetly, in my opinion, this will most likely be the case. Read edit at the end of the OP).
Update: under bankruptcy (hasan) corporation has to be dissolved what after distribution of all creditors has been made and Court bankruptcy termination order , dissolution esentualy cause all remaining asset liquidation and surplus sent to the shareholders - Tibanne and then Mark Karpeles.
Better scenario: If some miracle (never) happens the Court accept new btc evaluation, but then these to be paid as JPY, all (or better to say) suficient remaining btc need to be sold(liquidate) to settle new evaluated creditor claims and question is how much liquid asset (funds) creditors would receive due crushing the btc price. Eventual btc+forks surplus(°) what would be quite lower then in worst case scenario, would remain as intangible MtGox asset where corporation can do whatever they want - bankruptcy is completed. (°(eventual btc+forks surplus would depend on new btc price evaluation for creditor claims and difference in new total claimed sum vs. funds JPY what trustee get from actual btc liquidation). Update: corporate dissolution aplies here too, just much less funds to be sent to the shareholders.
Best scenario: (Low probability, read edit at end of the OP) Civil rehabilitation under supervision with approved plan where creditors can claim all remaining btc+ forks unexchanged (not liquidated) + what is already been liquidated.
In this case, if plan is approved we would get 100% our current claim. We need to divide total claimed JPY sum with 50.058JPY (btc 483$) to get how much that is as btc base and on that result add aprox 17% of btc/bcc distributed as btc/bcc. Percentage (17%) might be lower, depend on ther lawsuit and non mtgox users creditor claims. Example of the best case scenario: Current approved claim. Rates to JPY (2014) BTC= 50,058.12 JPY; US$ = 1USD=103.64 JPY Currency US$ balance = 1,200$= approved sum JPY=124,368. Bitcoin balance = 14btc = approved JPY = 700,813.68 124,368+700,813.68 =825,181.68 JPY total of approved creditor claim/ that is sum what creditor receive 100% sum (liquid funds almost available, to be distributed as JPY). 825,181.68/50,058.12=> 16.48 BTC base: 16.48x17%=> 2.80 BTC and 2.80 BCC to return as cryptocurrency. Sumarise: Creditor receive 825,181.68 JPY and 2.80 btc and 2.80 bcc. That would be max return. Same calculation is aplied if creditor had only btc balances, only any currency (fiat) or both currency(fiat) and btc. Both fiat or currency mean: USD, EUR, GBP, JPY etc.
Iam not sure what that actual CR and plan are in the "best case scenario" as I have no details. We actually need sort of "better case scenario" just without required to liquidate remaining btc+forks and to be distributed as intangible asset (btc+forks). Beside, its Trustee duty to look best interest of all creditors, but for bankrupt company as well, what might cause conflict. Its defenetelly hard and complex situation, for all parties.
Questionable is whatever liquidated intangible asset (btc) under bankruptcy (straight or CR) are subjected to the capital gain (not dividend) and approprate income tax what would cause lower(dilution) funds distribution. However, in that case question is how would be regarded our creditor claims i.e. deductable as intangible asset value entry? Capital gain/profit- loss - deductable - expense=> corporate gross income - tax=> net income. So actually, from what I know from accounting practise, paid funds for evaluated claims would be asset (btc) "in value" while liquidated asset "out value" so actual capital gain net from btc are: difference in paid claims minus actal liquidation value! Beside, that "net capital gain" are not actually "net gain" as there are minus from other deductable sums and only when they are substracted make net income before corporate income tax! It maight be discharged, but I doubt it. Only liquidated untangible asset (btc) are regarded as corporation capital gain/profit, its not corporation dividends. Its conflicted situation because MtGox did not bought these btc, nor mined them, nor gifted, nor received as Mtgox investment and they were never corporation assets. Control of btc as intangible assets does not always equal propietorship (if there are contract or mutual agreement), but it will be (are) if not chalanged and Iam not sure on what grounds are we creditors then (unless corporation addmited debt/liability, but then again on what terms and conditions or user agreement these btc have been received?). Regardless, Trustee must have profesional finance advisoaccountant.
Some examples of intangible assets: patents, trademarks, franchises, goodwill, copyrights, Internet domain names, performance events, licensing agreements, service contracts, computer software, blueprints, manuscripts, joint ventures, medical records, permits, and trade secrets and many more. When MtGox were alive, such intangible asset doesn't enter finance balance sheet neither as asset value or liability value. It would if MtGox exchanged them (trade) for his account with buy/sell price. MtGox when alive these btc just had to record in secundary books as btc +/- held analiticaly for each user. Under bankruptcy proceedings, such a intangible assets as bitcoin is very hard to assest (evaluate), usualy trustee waits until last minute bankrupt company to liquidate them or best bid (°) and to update btc evaluation value what prior were blank, in order creditors get as much as possible. In our case, trustee did not do that and I have not found anything what would make him to evaluate at start of the filling the claims. (°)Actually I think, in case of public auction certain restriction might apply, certain party can't bid (I might be wrong).
However, not all asset are in the same category. In my country, bitcoin is regarded as financial asset, it does not matter is it tangible or not. If I as a person or the company make money from trading internet domains, it would be regarded as income subject to the tax. But if I as a person (not company) make money from exchanging certain personal financial assets, btc, any currency, diamonds, gemstone, gold and earn (dividends and interest excluded) from the positive rate difference, it would not be income subjected to income tax. But in same situation, company would be subjected to the taxes. Capital gain has two separate catogory, dividends what is profit on top of asset (asset reamin) and capital gain from the trade of asset, where one asset is exchanged to another asset and profit is from the rate difference, which can be either positive either negative.
There was a lawsuit against bankrupt Mtgox where user requested full btc refund what were denied with this explanation:
Presiding Judge Masumi Kurachi said the Civil Code envisages proprietorship for tangible entities that occupy space and allow for exclusive control over them. The judge said it is evident bitcoins do not possess the properties of tangible entities...
Basicly that mean, bitcoin is intangible where envisaged proprietorship can't be claimed as they are not phisical in nature and because Mtgox had exclusive control!(based on Japan civil code btw what is 120 years old (°), but what about corrporation/commerce law?) Beside, whatever is exclusive control of said bitcoin (intangible asset) depend on mutual contract, user agreement, term and conditions. Regardless, it was right Court call in this case, they just couldn't return full btc holdings, no chance whasoever, it would be a nightmire for the rest of users who doesn't follow his step, but if he accepted loss of aprox 3/4 btc and wanted only remaining 1/4 rulling might be different.
(°) The National Diet approved significant amendment to the Civil Code in May 2017 to update the Civil Code which is approximately 120 years old. Some general rules and many provisions regarding contracts were amended. The amended Civil Code will be enacted sometime before June 2020.
Edit: Our btc and any other currency balances held at MtGox with 2014 market value is our claim against mtgox all assets. BTC belong to the Mtgox -we creditors only claim that debt. Even these BTC are sold at higher rate then 2014. this just make raise in value of the mtgox liquid financial asset (while intangible asset btc exit books), but doesn't automaticly raise mtgox debts to us! Debt stays as is. According to the mtgoxlegal lawyer, new claim evaluation is not possible and I agree. Then how we the creditors, even in CR will be able to claim the btc as they dont belong to us as btc, but only current debt? Its like we sold our btc at 2014. at 483$ to the Mtgox who never paid us and that value we claim now within our claims. Try to imagine how btc dont exist or it exist but with same rate in 2018 as in 2014. We would be in the same situation if JPY rate against all other currency went to the roof, but btc are still at around 500$. Like its not in 2014, 1usd=103 JPY, but let say in 2018, 1usd=100,000 JPY, our claims would still reflect 2014 rates (even in CR) btc are not different. Even if CR reopen the window for filling claims and evaluation of the ALL claims, it would be at 2014. market rates!
I have a idea where we could get something over our current claims, but still brainstorming and many users won't like it as that is not what they expect to get. I think we are fucked - worst case scenario. Even if someone try to sue based on btc balances once held at Mtgox, it would fail. It might be different case, if Mark(•) said before bankruptcy, hey, these btc never belonged to the Mtgox, return what is left after audit to the mtgox users and then start bankruptcy to try get what went missing from real owned mtgox asset, what is not much and beside, I think bankruptcy would be terminated on grounds how mtgox asset can't even cover administrative creditors who have priority, let alone other creditors. (•) (All three insolvency proceedings can be filed either voluntarily or involuntarily. Generally, no one, including a debtor or any of its creditors, is obligated to file a petition to commence insolvency proceedings under Japanese law.).
50k JPY per bitcoin from creditors approved claim from 2014. is not binding because of Mtgox online claim system state it (or offline claim signiture), but its final and binding based on the Japan Bankruptcy Act court rulling and applicible as binding contractual Agreement in any other Japan proceeding, or eglible laws, Civil Rehabilitation included. Beside, that is only one reason, other reason is how Mtgox is in the bankruptcy proceeding since 2014. its never completed, eventual civil rehabilitation is only transition and if it ever commence, Mtgox is still under rehabilitation Act where for creditors claim total on 2014 rates total nothing change, but can increase distribution from the debtor profits max 100% claim total value (Mtgox has already enough funds or asset to sell to cover 100% payout). Third reason is how Mtgox users are regarded as last class unprotected non-priority creditors. And more reasons, but you get the picture! There is not much difference for the last class of creditors (Mtgox users) between liquidation or civil rehabilitation.
Due to Mtgox terms of use and accounting, Mtgox users are something as unsecured none-priority trade creditors without right to retain proprietorship of sold/bought, but unpaid btc (goods) until actual user withdraw. Real IN and OUT for both fiat and bitcoin with Mtgox are deposits and withdraw, trading are all just virtual balancing and Mtgox is in bankruptcy since 2014. without activity for creditors in regard on this IN and OUT (or trade). Otherwise, if we had legal grounds to get Mtgox btc asset surplus, we would get portion of non-stolen bitcoin back long time ago either outside of bankruptcy or within as separate satisfaction and with that portion btc back, would be able to claim damages for the missing bitcoins.
Anybody can (sponsor) buy MtGox capital (surplus included) and negotiate ~2000-3000$ per bitcoin where sponsor would need ~400-500M$ fresh capital (to take surplus and liabilities) and for that need civil rehabilitation, but nothing change for the creditor claims value (50k JPY/BTC), sponsor is still obligated only creditors claim total value and when settled, sponsor can use surplus free, fresh as their choice. If sponsor is a (group) of creditors, from that ~400-500M$ their claim total on 2014 rates is deducted. Bitcoins balances can't be segretated, otherwise creditors would have it long time ago.
Be careful who use you (creditor) to send umbiguous letters to their lawyers, surveys, without really knowing concrete and detailed plan and what is creditor benefit and how and on what legal grounds they plan to achive it, don't accept diplomatic responses! If somebody want to be a sponsor, I accept it, its a busines, but if nothing change to my creditor claim value with concrete plan how to achive it, it would just further delay distribution! Then its sponsor benefit, not ALL creditors benefit, even though might look like it! Read Bankruptcy and Rehabitilation Acts to learn about trustee duties and responsibilities and how Mtgox trustee have no say in this, trustee only follow court issued order.
Its not only this binding claim value a problem! If we had legal grounds on surplus btc assets, we would be secured creditors and would get portion of non-stolen bitcoin back long time ago either outside of bankruptcy or within, as separate satisfaction and with that portion btc back, would be able to claim damages for the missing bitcoins. I just don't understand people who spent $100k-200k for lawyers blind trust where lawyers just ensure them to think how CR somehow make Mtgox users what are last unsecured non-prority class of creditors into secured creditors with preserved propetorship of Mtgox bitcoin balances, who can claim bitcoin seperatelly either as btc or liquidated value and who could not claim that in the bankruptcy liquidation, but somehow magically in Civil Rehabilitation they can! Based on what legal grounds? Group lawyer told them how would need an court precedent in order creditors get above of 2014 rates claim value!? Precedent? If Mtgox users had agreemant what state how all balances (btc and fiat) are preserved propietorship until user withdraw, we would have aprox 1/4 btc long time ago and no precedent is required for that, (I could tell them this for free).
MtGox case were true Caveat Emptor. Finally, we all bought and sold bitcoin what was not actually fully unspent at Mtgox bitcoin wallets and users monetary balances did not reflect fully MtGox bank account balances.
04/22. I tried to discuss at mtgoxlegal group about counter-arguments what would overturn this major problems in order to help group lawyers, even we end up with nothing, but many misunderstund and bombarded me with questions to defend this and insulted me personaly, because some are ignorant, arrogant, rude, on ego trip and missed the the point how I must post problems first in order to discuss about valid arguments to overturn it, otherwise they would not understand what I talk about. They asked me even to prove it??? Imagine ignorance! Creditor situation is already funded within Japan bankruptcy and Rehabilitation Acts, Civil and Corporate Code, but I have to prove it to them! OMG, that all I can say on that. Wrong group to discuss obviously!
Even by some magic CR commence (if Tibanne appeal fail), it does not mean creditors get anything above of already approved claim total based on 2014 rates, unless Mtgox trustee state it so and rehabitilation plan is confirmed within 5 months after commencement.
submitted by alfabi to mtgoxinsolvency [link] [comments]

No privacy policy on ?

The website, in the "What people think..." section, sometimes quotes an anonymous user who says (italics mine):
I LOVE the fact that you tip straight to a linked address. You 'attach' your address to your reddit username.
Attaching reddit usernames to Bitcoin addresses isn't great for privacy.
I could not find any privacy policy on the site.
Could you say anything to reassure users of your service that this 'linking' data will not be passed on to others?
UPDATE: Tibanne has added a privacy policy here:
Thanks a lot!
submitted by LovelyDay to chaintip [link] [comments]

05-31 20:26 - 'Hard to say, what one may see as relevant another may not, that would be an individual decision. Some one else may just want to know a little more for the sake of knowing more and as such they will determine if it is relevant to...' by /u/Hashrsyn removed from /r/Bitcoin within 0-5min

Hard to say, what one may see as relevant another may not, that would be an individual decision. Some one else may just want to know a little more for the sake of knowing more and as such they will determine if it is relevant to them. Or another may wonder if the law firm they hired to represent them had acted 100% in their respective best interest and provided them "due diligence". Were all avenues of approach pursued in the restitution of their clients assets. Did they honor rule 1.6 of the American Bar Association. Maybe one will find relevance if they question the entity, MTGox / Tibanne / Mark Karpele, and their fiduciary duty (A fiduciary duty is a legal duty to act solely in another party's interests ... applies above also) to their clients. Did they (MTGox) make claims about their product/service, bitcoin exchange, which were most likely false, specifically about the security used to protect their clients assets. Or did MTGox acting as a fiduciary to it's clients, avoid conflicts of interest in regards; to it self and clients or between clients and other clients. For example say certain parties were allowed to transfer out assets while others were not allowed to, or maybe even given warning to an impending freeze in transactions. Another situation may be to execute trades (Tibanne HK) in advance of clients, aka front running, for the profit of the company or even for making up losses if one believes that story. Luke relevance is often very subjective. For example I would say the records of a mining pool that solely handled the transactions of MTGox would be very relevant, they would give insight into what had happened 2 years ago. Further more, post withdrawal freeze may even indicate complicit parties which would be in such records. What about the transaction malleability claims, certain individuals would have been notified of failed transactions, and certain individuals would have known such claims to be BS. Just my 2 cents, but in my opinion seems pretty relevant. I will continue provide what I known to let the reader determine relevance.
Context Link
Go1dfish undelete link
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Author: Hashrsyn
submitted by removalbot to removalbot [link] [comments]

Response to recent Ripple drama

tl;dr= Jed is brilliant and he feels it's important that we all know that. His motivations are the only thing I question.
Hi, I'm Frank Martinez; CEO and founder of Dollero. I started this company with one of the most brilliant people I've ever met, Jon Owens. Neither of us is perfect, but we have a vision for the world that fits perfectly with Ripple. Our first products will be coming out this year. This is my analysis of the latest postings from Jed McCaleb, a former RippleLabs co-founder.
RippleLabs founders hold XRP for a number of reasons and holding it for the time being is important for the stability of the system. If they were greedy, they would have dumped when XRP was trading at ~20/1btc.
Jed's so called immense respect for the community would not have been dumping. Insider accounts, aka friends of Jed, were selling XRP for the 2-3 weeks prior to Jed's announcement. It was plain as day in the order book. Tanking the price by announcing his future dump in the way he did was an offensive play more on XRP holders than RippleLabs. He just basically cut the value of every XRP investors account. That's his definition of considerate? He ended his comment with "Just FYI". Did that stand for Fuck Your Investment?
Insider trading and market manipulation is what this is all about. And it's about making Jed seem like the hero and RL like greedy pigs. That's an emotional play though, dig deeper and you'll see what I mean. The truth is much more self serving.
What's his alternative? Create a system like Ripple that doesn't have it's native currency with a portion allocated to the founders. Let me guess, the first people in that system will be able to mine/buy/whatever the currency before everyone else. How much will Jed have, directly or indirectly? How much bitcoin do the earliest or early adopters have, % wise? Tough to tell with the nature of bitcoin and it's lack of transparency, but we know that early analysis of btc holdings resulted, quickly, in distribution to many accounts thus obfuscating the actual holding of those users. My guess is it will be tough to tell with the nature of Jed's next project. Coinconverter was another project Jed built that also had a lack of transparency. Dark pools of liquidity bought or sold through structured trades for minimal slippage. Maybe Jed doesn't want 8% of the XRP. Maybe he wants 10-13% of his own creation.
Jed's initial post, pre-edit, credited no one other than himself for Ripple. That's a team of what, like 50 people? I'm sure some of the other as brilliant if not more brilliant people there contributed.
RL + bank gateways = wider adoption and actual use cases for more than just the privileged few with access and understanding of these technologies. Wider adoption means everyday people saving money with remittances, which have a direct correlation to healthier children and better chances of pulling out of poverty in many remittance destinations. This work is being done right now by teams building on top of Ripple, like our team.
20% amongst founders is standard. They have more rounds of funding to do. This isn't greed, this is strategy. That 20% is XRP they can dip into to acquire more talented people. They are the only company in the space capable of recruiting top talent because they can raise money because of XRP. The focus is on the system, not XRP; as it should be.
A little perspective on greed/value/exits, whatever you want to call it:
WhatsApp sold for $19B
Oculus for $2B
Atlas for $100M
Instagram for $1B
Apple is worth about $500B Jobs would have been worth, had he not sold some of his stock, $30.7 billion.
MSFT is about $343.82B. Gates is worth about $76 billion and a known philanthropist.
RippleLabs 20% is worth ~ $72.8 million, collectively.
Jed has/had 9b xrp; worth $31.3 million at price right now ($0.003484/xrp).
Jed also started MtGox, sold it in 2011. It's challenging to think that Jed didn't know Mark K of Tibanne, the company who bought it mtgox. Insolvency concerns were known as early as 2011, and now, building another bitcoin project? After leaving bitcoin to improve on the flaws of bitcoin? Scratch my head on that one.
My takeaway: the source of the drama is usually the producer. Jed is trying to cripple RL because he wants more money, otherwise he would work towards making Ripple better. Capitalizing on emotional plays and strategic disruption of RL is confusing and borderline unethical. Both Bitcoin and Ripple are disruptive to the power structures of today's banking infrastructure. So why hurt that; why not strengthen our efforts, collectively? Are we not working towards improving the lives of all people of the world?
submitted by LeTanque to Ripple [link] [comments]

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Named after Mark Karpeles’s cat, Mt.Gox parent company Tibanne owned more than a shockingly insecure bitcoin exchange. The company also held the Japanese and European Union trademarks on the word “bitcoin,” as well as the now-quite-valuable domain name. With all of Mt.Gox’s operations effectively dead, save for a sliver of hope by some that … A years-old $75 million lawsuit against Mt Gox by US company CoinLab is delaying payouts to creditors, the Japanese bankruptcy trustee revealed today. Bitcoin Mining. 11,365,200 Bitcoins in circulation (which is $ 1,358,315,775 in USD) While Bitcoins are created through mining, there's a limit to the number of Bitcoins that can be mined. This is to prevent inflation. After the year 2140, no more Bitcoins will be created, and the total amount ever available is fixed at 21 million. not.22 Cash and Bitcoin transactions are similarly anonymous or pseudonymous, but Bitcoin does not require face-to-face transactions. Finally, a governmental body backs a fiat currency, which provides reputational stability to the fiat currency that Chief Exec. Officer, Tibanne Co. Ltd., Clarification of Mt. Gox Compromised Accounts and Category: Bitcoin Technology Tags: Bitcoin, bitcoin mining Activities of Those Tibanne Limited HK Users Found in Leaked Mt. Gox Database. By 7u83 March 15, 2014. 5 Comments. By looking into the database leaked from Mt. Gox you will notice two obviously special users, one is "TIBANNE_LIMITED_HK", and the other is "THK". Both sold about 2.96 ...

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